Jana Hoffmann

Voice Over (00:02):
This show is sponsored by the Comics Shop. We hope you enjoy the show.

Jana Hoffmann (00:24):
All right, good day and welcome to another episode of Tuesday Chinwag. My name is Lee Chalker. I’m the creator of the Independent Australian Comic book Battle for Bustle, published through the Comex Shop. So, uh, we’re live streamed on the Comex Network. So the best thing that you can do is like, and subscribe ’em anywhere you can find them, ’cause it helps the, uh, algorithmic thingies and, you know, like the roots of the community grow into a big tree. And, uh, that’s what we are here for. So, uh, tonight, uh, there’s a, the guest, uh, and I’m very thankful that, uh, Yana, uh, agreed to be on Chinwag. And, um, um, and looking forward to this one. I dunno a lot about Yna, but, uh, if there’s anyone out there that doesn’t know much about Yna, you’re about to find out a lot. So, uh, I will introduce Miss Yna Hoffman. How are you?

Leigh Chalker (01:14):
I’m good, thank you. How are you?

Jana Hoffmann (01:17):
I’m not too bad. Thank you. And welcome to Chinwag.

Leigh Chalker (01:21):
Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

Jana Hoffmann (01:23):
No, it’s cool, man. I’m very excited about meeting you tonight. ’cause, uh, you know, like, um, you’re a, we’ll get into the South Australian community soon because that’s, um, that’s a thriving, uh, little network of creators down that way. Um, possibly, possibly a very, very fertile ground of comic book creators, I would say. ’cause, uh, most of the people I seem to meet, seem to, uh, all be around the South Australian area, mate. So, um, yeah, you can fill us in on some of those details and, uh, you know, we’ll get into it. So, all right, Yana, I’m just gonna get straight into, uh, the, uh, well, you know, we spoke about it before. I won’t delay. So, who,

Leigh Chalker (02:11):
Who, who am I? Um, I, uh, my name is Yana Hoffman. I’m, uh, as mentioned a comic creator from Adelaide in South Australia. Uh, and I’ve always lived here around, around around the west side. Um, and, uh, I grew up, I don’t remember this, but I’ve been told that I was always drawing, um, and by someone who knew me in kindergarten, so, so sorry, primary school, not kindy. Um, so, um, so yeah, but I discovered comics in high school and, uh, uh, then, um, would catch the bus into the city to try and find, like, look Intimidatingly at these, or, sorry, look at all the intimidating, like, racks of, of comics and things like that. Um, but I was also really heavily into fantasy, um, novels. And so, um, something for me as, as one of those, like, as a novel reader that I really loved was being able to start from the beginning.

(03:21)
So I never really like glommed onto like, Batman or Super, or, you know, any, uh, many of the superheroes at all, because I couldn’t go back to the start, like <laugh>. So, um, so I picked up, uh, things like, um, Michael Turner’s, Aspen Comics, because they were a new, um, at the time, this is telling you how old I am. Uh, they were a new, um, uh, imprint. Uh, you know, they were, they were new, and I could start from the start. And, um, although of course I then discovered that sometimes there was like little sneaky references off to other things. I was like, oh, so more cash bought. Yeah, <laugh>. Um, and, uh, I also bought a lot of how to draw Manga comics. Um, that was, I think it was done by Arctic Press or something. I don’t know. There were there, um, like the format was not particularly great for learning.

(04:22)
Uh, but it, I really like, I loved it still, and I, I think I still got them downstairs somewhere. Um, but yeah, so I, I, um, loved reading comics. Um, and, but what I really was drawn to was web comics and online comics. Um, so especially ’cause being like in high school, I didn’t, um, didn’t have a lot of money to splash around. And, um, like graphic novels were like, um, graphic novels that would appeal to a fantasy loving teenager was like a little bit thin on the ground. So, whereas I found tonnes of really great fantasy comics online. Um, and so, um, in, when I was at tafe, uh, sorry, well, UNI and tafe, um, I started a, or did a brief web comic with a friend of mine called Let Comic, which he wrote. And it was a silly comic strip that was very much about jokes about McGill, and it sort of fell apart when I left McGill Uni to go to tafe.

(05:32)
Um, and, um, then after that I sort of got stuck into being a web des web developer, web designer, um, tried to be an adult. Um, and I found that that wasn’t particularly fun. Um, <laugh>, I can get there. And so after, after discovering a or hearing about a, um, uh, uh, Adelaide Ladies comic book club, um, I then got back into the comic scene. So, yeah. Um, and then, yeah, so that was probably, it was probably, I don’t know, eight years between <laugh>, the, the, the uni comic days and, and then coming back into, slowly coming back into the tonne, um, that sort of thing. So

Jana Hoffmann (06:24):
<laugh>, there you go. Alright, so, um, I’m gonna take you, I’m gonna take you back to Little Yarn now, and, um, I, I’ve never been to Adelaide, uh, one of the few places I haven’t been. So, what’s, what’s the, what was it like growing up on the, uh, the west side of Adelaide for Young Janna?

Leigh Chalker (06:44):
Um, oh, how, how to describe it? I, um, yeah, I, like, I live just around the corner from the beach, which, um, I never went to because it was just around the corner. And now that I don’t live just around the corner, um, I’m like, why it’s so great and it’s now, uh, you know, uh, a whole 25 minute drive away <laugh>. Um, whereas I could have walked there before, but of course I didn’t. Um, so I didn’t really know a lot of people who liked comics growing up. Like every, you know, everybody loved Calvin Hobbes in the paper and all that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, as a kid, I didn’t really know anybody else who read comics, which is probably, I mean, I also didn’t know anybody who loved reading books as much as I did either. I was, um, I was the weirdo in the family where, so, um, uh, my, uh, my dad is involved with the Port football club, and he’d take, take us, we’d have a, um, we’d be guests for a box and, um, uh, everybody would be watching the match except for me with my nose in a book.

(07:59)
And so they thought that was a bit embarrassing, so they stopped turning me to the football <laugh> because I was so not interested Yeah. Watching the football. Yep. Um, so I, I’m the only one in the family who, um, like I, I had a family event, um, uh, an extended family thing where I, um, uh, a couple of weeks ago where I visited family in Victoria. And, um, yeah, I think maybe of the, like, of all the aunties and the uncles and everything, I’m like, the only one who doesn’t like watch football. Like, I, you know, I go for power’s, like, it’s the family team, you know, I vaguely remember some of the names from 10 years ago when, when my ex used to actually watch it. But, uh, like <laugh>. But yeah, they’re, they’re all, you know, all my family’s into the tipping and the, um, and, and everything. And I’m, I’m like, Hmm, <laugh>, does Bergo still play <laugh>? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you

Jana Hoffmann (09:02):
Wouldn’t get into books like Grand Final Day or anything, you know, like, uh, that, oh, Janna’s not interested. She’ll be reading books and drawing and

Leigh Chalker (09:10):
Stuff. I mean, I, I socially do it, so, you know, I’ll, um, <laugh>, uh, hi Dave. Hi everyone. Yep. I, and I, and I do enjoy the atmosphere of being at the football. Like, um, it, it can be such a vibe. Um, I, I will definitely, you know, if, if I’ve got family or friends who are really, who really love the football, then like, I, I have grown to appreciate <laugh>. Um, I won’t take a book these days if I attend. Um, ah,

Jana Hoffmann (09:41):
So, so like just a magazine. So just some light reading in those, in those, uh, little moments of quiet, like half time <laugh>,

Leigh Chalker (09:50):
Well, the footy records so that I know who’s playing basically.

Jana Hoffmann (09:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh> good thinking.

Leigh Chalker (09:56):
So, yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (09:58):
I dunno anything,

Leigh Chalker (09:59):
But yeah, my, my ex used to be a football mad person, so, um, and I was much more across it then, but, um, my current partner cares about football as much as I do, so <laugh>

Jana Hoffmann (10:11):
Well, there you go. So,

Leigh Chalker (10:12):
Yeah, I have no idea what’s going on, and it seems to me every time I pay attention to how port’s doing, then we lose. So I, I’m like, I’m doing everyone a favour by not paying attention,

Jana Hoffmann (10:22):
<laugh>, right? The minute you turn your attention to port, like Gonsky for the year. So they’re probably thankful that, uh, you know, like, um, you’re not paying attention. But, uh, mate, I know nothing about a FL. Um, I am from Queensland, so Queensland of course, and New South Wales are obviously like rugby league towns, but a FL is infiltrating, you know, um, uh, for sure. But, um, yeah, I, I, I’m, I’m a little bit with you on that one. Um, I don’t mind watching some sport here and there. Um, but I’m, I, I’d rather be drawing and stuff like that, but hey, everyone can do what they like to do out there. There’s probably people like throwing things at their computer screens now going, how dare you pair, you know, like, say those things. But it’s true <laugh>. Um, so I know what you mean about the beach too.

(11:15)
It’s like, um, yeah, when you’ve got things close by you, um, tend not to, uh, I guess, um, visit them as much, you know, because, uh, can the pies art versus life with Felix. And thank you for your comments. Um, and, uh, I, I’m assuming the pies are Carlton, is that correct? So there you go. I’m, I’m showing a little bit of ignorance there, so I apologise. Um, um, yeah, but no, beaches are good. I like beaches. Um, I’m, I’m from North Queensland, so there’s, uh, beaches everywhere and, uh, you know, I do frequent, uh, I find water very soothing, so it’s probably because I’m a water sign, but, uh, I try and get there as often as I can, um, for, so, you know, just to add to the context of it now, um, with, um, with your drawing, um, like what, ’cause you just said to me, um, there, you didn’t really know anyone that liked comic books. Um, so what came first was it the, the fantasy novels. And I, I’m a huge, uh, reader of fantasy novels as well when I was younger. So this will be interesting to, uh, find out what titles you were reading. Um, uh, Nick, hello mate. How are you? Um, so give me some titles, Janna, of your favourite fantasy novels, mate.

Leigh Chalker (12:44):
Uh, so I, I always struggle to, um, come up with favourites, but what I will give you is like, the most memorable ones, the ones that I remember, especially from that, because I, I, um, now that I’m spending so much time drawing, I’m not getting to as much reading. ’cause I have a bad habit of not adulting when I read. Um, and like, like I just, you know, I don’t, I don’t do chores. I don’t, I don’t even draw, like, I’m just like, oh, I have to get through this book. Um, yeah, but who,

Jana Hoffmann (13:15):
Who needs responsibility? Janna? I mean, it’s overrated, man. Like, I’m with you, I know

Leigh Chalker (13:21):
<laugh>, and then I discovered audio books and I was like, this is great. I can like draw and do the thing. But then the problem is that I, I like, I like zoom in and noodle on something that I should just move on and then, or zoo and then realise that I’ve zoomed in on something that I, you can’t, you can’t even see what I’ve done, like after an hour because I was so absorbed with what I was listening. But, um, um, uh, so probably what, uh, the, the one that I remember most from the series that I remember reading the most from high school, which is funny ’cause I don’t remember much about the actual series itself, was, um, Raymond Feiss and The Magician Series. Yeah. Okay. Um, I, yeah, yeah. So, but I, what I have been, what I have been re-listen, or rereading or listening to, um, is the spinoff with Jan Wetz, the, of the Empire Series, which I still really love. Um, yeah. And I find has, um, aged reasonably well, <laugh>, um, and, uh, the Bulgar series or, or you

Jana Hoffmann (14:27):
Books, oh, David ings Don’t Get Started on The Belgar Man. Like that is,

(14:33)
Yeah, that’s one of those, um, book series that my uncle was a voracious reader, and that Pete, like used to read a book, flick it off to me. And the Bulgar ad series was awesome. And I’ve often wondered why they’ve never tried turning that into, um, uh, like a television show. Um, because man, they, they were really cool books, man, the Bulgar. And depending on the, the addition, you, you got, um, the soft covers had these really wicked fantasy paintings, like on the cover that were like, oh, you know, like, you’d look at ’em and just be like, wow, how did they do that? But yeah, no, excellent books. So, yeah. Yeah. Nice, nice one. And, um, and

Leigh Chalker (15:20):
I think, I think I read the spinoff books first, you know, the RA and, um, oh, what’s the other one? Um, you know, the, the solo ones, um, which is a terrible way to read them. They, I think <laugh> I think that would’ve, it would’ve been better if I’d actually read them in publication order, but I think I just picked up the cover, um, at a, at the library. So, um, I, um, I’m also quite a fast reader. I used to borrow, I think my limit of 12 books from the, the local library and then return them early. Um, I had two weeks to read them, and I was just like, because I wasn’t

Jana Hoffmann (15:57):
<crosstalk> just hammering through books, man, like voracious mind, like, man, you must have been watching a lot of football in that house. <laugh>

Leigh Chalker (16:06):
Also not sleeping. I would like to, like, when we’d, I’d be like, go, we’d all go to bed, you know, everyone, all the lights are out. And then I’d wait until everybody, I thought everybody was asleep, and then I’d flick the light back on and then get, start reading. So then I started falling asleep in mass, which is very handy when you become a web designer. And maps would be really useful to be good at. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, <laugh>. Um, but yeah, so, um, and Tamora Pierce is, is still one of my favourite authors, um, which you may not have read because it’s 14 teenagers and mostly girls, so, um, but she’s,

Jana Hoffmann (16:46):
I haven’t, I haven’t read

Leigh Chalker (16:47):
Any here. Yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (16:48):
Yeah. No, that’s good. That’s good.

Leigh Chalker (16:51):
Everyone,

Jana Hoffmann (16:52):
Everyone enjoys everything different. If everyone was the same Yama, it’d be a very boring place to live in the world, mate. You know?

Leigh Chalker (16:59):
Well, I was really excited to see is ’cause like, her books came out, I think late, started coming out late eighties, and then, um, uh, I like, so, and was continued to be published through the nineties and early two thousands. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and one of her series is being to, uh, adapted into a, uh, graphic novel series. Um, so I, I’ve just pre-ordered the book. When I saw it on the on order for through Greenlight, I was just like, oh my God. Um, and I was like, please, you know, put me down for any addict adaptations of, of her books. ’cause I’m, I’m super excited. I I found it interesting. It wasn’t her first series, ’cause that was, um, her first series was about, um, a girl pretending to be a boy, to become a knight. Um, and, uh, like certainly to me at the time, I was just like, oh my God, women in a fantasy world. It was like <laugh>. It was great. It was so good. And like, I know that sounds very cliche now, but at the time, at least 14-year-old me thought it was just like amazing. Oh, I mean, yeah. I’m surprised.

Jana Hoffmann (18:08):
Well, from reading Fantasy, sorry. Well, when I was reading Fantasy, it was very male, you know, like orientated, you know. And, um, um, so yeah, when those ya books started hitting, I mean, like, man, I, I’m all for strong female characters. Um, like a, a lot of the characters in my comic book are female. And, um, uh, me and a couple of my mates that you’d probably know, BSY and Ryan Valer and, and, um, Ben Sullivan do a, um, a comic book called Ring Around the Rosie, which is a female led comic book. And she’s a very strong character. Um, ’cause when I was growing up, I, um, I got brought up by moms and grandmas and, you know, aunts and, um, so female energy’s quite strong, you know, like with me. And, um, I, I always, you know, and I grew up in late eighties, nineties comics and, um, it was all very, you know, like, you know, uh, you know, alpha sort of masculine <laugh> stuff.

(19:17)
Yes, yes, yes, very much so. And, um, I always enjoyed, um, well seeing female characters come through, you know, to the place that they are now in literature and comic books and stuff. So, no, it’s good man. It’s good. Um, I enjoyed, did you, did you ever read, um, they did a bogie TV arts, oh, here we go. Ever get into Thomas Covenant series? Steven Donaldson that will never be filmed. I do have books of the Thomas Covenant series. I’ve got a few of them, uh, not, I dunno if I’ve ever actually read them, but they’re, they’re on my shelf. I’ve got a terrible habit mate of, um, buying books from book exchanges and, you know, like secondhand stores and, and, um, and they sit <laugh>, I’ve got piles, you know, like, I’ll get to that and I never do. So, um, because as you said,

Leigh Chalker (20:12):
Yeah, I haven’t, I haven’t heard of that one.

Jana Hoffmann (20:14):
Yeah. Oh, it’s considered a classic. Um, that’s probably why I’ve got it. But as, as you noted before, when you’re drawing, you tend to, if you sit down to read, you get like guilty as because you’re not drawing. And then, you know, like it’s, ah, I’ll put the books aside, but audio books, um, is cool. I like audio books. I have a tendency of going through and, um, finding, I like how, um, like in America they have, I can’t remember what, uh, I dunno what the name of it is, but Lin Vox possibly, and it’s like a public, um, they read the classic literature, right? So like, once it’s outta the public domain, they go back and like, they just have people, I guess, come in and read these books. And, uh, I love often having, like, the weird man, the last book i I audio read was, uh, it was called 11 Years The Drunkard.

(21:17)
And it was written like 1910 or something. And it was about a dude that started drinking whiskey when he was 11. And, uh, by the time he was like 22, uh, he’d lost his legs and got amputated, and then by the time he was like 25, they amputated his arms. So he wrote this book with a quill that he used to dip, like, into the, with his mouth. And he wrote everything like with his mouth, man, you know, like, and it took him like 10 years to write this book, but it was an interesting book. But, you know, like, uh, yeah. Wow. That’s some stuff that I’d listened to in the background. So take that as you will <laugh> <laugh>, yeah. Not sure people. Yeah, I, I dunno if it’d be recommended. Um, I collect audio books, rarely listen to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, um, there’s some good ones out there, but I like to, Hey, where you get, um, um, where you get that one voice actor and he’s like, oh man, they’re into it. Like, they’re dropping like 11 characters voices and stuff, and ha ha you know, like, and oh man, and you get real GED up by that too. Um, and as you said, oh, my

Leigh Chalker (22:30):
Absolute favourite book, and like, I think it would be one of my favourites anyway, even, even if I hadn’t listened to the audio, but it’s a fictional memoir of a Lady Dragon Naturalist and, um, the, the narrator is this like English woman affecting, like, and because it’s an, it’s a memoir, um, she’s in character the entire time, so you don’t have that kind of like, like, it’s not the worst having a a, a sort of a deadpan narrator so that the characters really come to life. But at the same time, because it is this memoir, it’s written in her like voice the entire time, and it’s just, it’s such a delight. Um, and I’m a sucker for an accent anyway, but like, it’s just, yeah, it’s so good. Um, and it’s also about, um, studying dragons. So it is quite, it’s very fun. Um, it’s one of, one of my favourite series, um, A Natural History of Dragons. Um, so it’s, I think, yeah, four books and wonderful, like, just absolutely delightful. Yeah. Um, again, if anyone, if only one’s for a good, like, that’s my first recommendation when someone’s like, what, you know, what, what’s a good book that, like, that would be, I’d be like, let me tell you about how great this book is. <laugh>. Yeah, yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (23:46):
Yeah. So, yeah. No, that’s cool. What’s your favourite

Leigh Chalker (23:48):
Dragon? Yeah, all of them.

Jana Hoffmann (23:53):
<laugh>,

Leigh Chalker (23:54):
So in, because Yeah, yeah. No, actually, so I’m, I do lean towards European dragons more than Asian dragons. Um, uh, and I mean, toothless is pretty great, like from How to Train a Dragon, obviously. Um, uh, I always have a soft spot for like, when humans and dragons end up paired up. Um, so like in Aragon or, um, uh, there’s, uh, a book series called, uh, the Last Dragon, Lord, that’s what it’s called by Joanne Burton, which like, I’ve, she’s kind of disappeared off the face of planet after doing these two books. It took me ages to realise there was actually two, um, yep. And I somehow managed to track down a copy of the final book. And, um, and yeah, I can’t find any evidence that she’s done anything else since, or that she’s, yeah, I was just like, what? I really enjoyed these books. What, where, what, what’s going on? But, um, yeah, so, um, yeah, I do, I

Jana Hoffmann (25:06):
Do like that Martin World mate and just, you know, like left everyone on a cliffhanger and just, oh, just go and do 50 other projects and come back to it, you know? So it’s, uh, yeah. What are you doing? Yeah,

Leigh Chalker (25:18):
It’s actually, that’s actually one of the very few series I haven’t, like, finished. Like, I, I usually have a compulsion that I can’t not finish a book and I can’t, and I have to read a series. And I think because I, I was aware that it has wasn’t finished yet, is why I’ve not finished it. Um, so, um, yeah. And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll have, I’ll say some heresy. I didn’t finish the first Lord, the Rings book either. Oh, I loved the movies. I really loved it. But it was like, th six chapters in, and we were still at that party at the start, and I think I was maybe 14 or 16 or something. And I was just like, I’m done. I’m done with this <laugh>.

Jana Hoffmann (26:06):
So yeah, my uncle

Leigh Chalker (26:07):
Gave me wheel of time was I was really into Wheel of Time, um, especially ’cause that was coming out in, during high school as well, so Yeah. Yeah. At least the end, end part of it. So,

Jana Hoffmann (26:19):
Yeah. No, I enjoyed the Wheel of Time series. Um, the TV show is, uh, a little bit how you going, but, um, from what I remember, um, uh, from reading Wheel of Time, man, I was spewing when like the 12th book came out and, uh, I can’t remember how old I was when that came out. Um, and then the poor bugger passed away and I was like, I’ve just spent like 25 years reading this stuff, man. And I <laugh>, I’ll never know.

Leigh Chalker (26:48):
I know. And then, um,

Jana Hoffmann (26:50):
And then they snuck out two, like two books from his notes. And, um, I was quite happy with that. But, uh, yeah, no, I, I’m with you man. I, I spent too long and so, so many hours reading so many books. I, I like the, I like the theatres of your mind sort of thing. ’cause it’s like, um, I don’t know, sometimes with the movies you get a little bit like in the TV shows, ah, it doesn’t look like how I thought of it, you know, like that sort of a thing. Um, um, but hey, that’s cool. Um, I, uh, so with, um, I’m just trying to think with, with the book reading and the non-existent fake fandom of the football going on, and, um, just, you know, like hearing a cheer and going, Hey, yeah, back to the book. You know, like, which is, that’s cool man.

Leigh Chalker (27:42):
<laugh>

Jana Hoffmann (27:43):
Just blown it open for the family here that actually may have thought you’re enjoying it for years, you know, uh, tragedy. I couldn’t finish it, man. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an epic, there’s no doubt about that. Um, uh, indeed.

Leigh Chalker (27:58):
Yeah, it’s a lot. Um,

Jana Hoffmann (27:59):
Oh God, it’s a lot. You know, like I look at the book series now, it takes up one whole row on my bookshelf and <laugh> sit there and go like, where did I find the time to, you know, to read that? But I did. Um, so it’s done and dusted. Um, but, um, I’ll never read it again, that’s for sure. Uh, not that it’s, I, not that I didn’t enjoy it, it’s just that I just don’t ever see myself getting the time to, you know, like, um, sit down and enjoy something of such mass creation again. Um, sadly, due to responsibilities, Janna, see what responsibilities do to you mate, they strip you of all this joy of reading 20,000 pages Fantasy <laugh>. Yeah.

Leigh Chalker (28:42):
Again, again, when there’s also like, so, ’cause I would really love to read more Brennan Anderson books. Like I, um, obviously read the Wheeler time books that he wrote. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I read, uh, like Alan Trust and a couple of his or audio listened to a couple of the, his audio books. Um, and they’re so good. But yeah, they’re dense. There’s so much of them. There’s, and I’m just like, um, if I can, if I have the time and mental space to read, I’m going to probably try and read something new like in, um, sometimes I have in the past been like, I need to adult, but I really want some book in my life. And I’ll try and I’ll listen to a book that I already know. And I think that that will not affect me quite as badly as, um, as reading a new book, but not so much. So, um, I I tend not to do it. So <laugh>

Jana Hoffmann (29:43):
Fair. That’s fair, mate. I I think that’s a hundred percent fair. We all, you know, whatever floats your boat, ya, and, uh, you know, gets you through, mate, that’s, that’s, uh, keeps you going. So, mate, with, um, all the reading that was going on, um, and you said, uh, primary school was, um, when you started drawing, or at least the person that, uh, let you know you were drawing, um, I’m going to assume with, uh, when you were young and you’re soaking in all this high fantasy, what were some of the first drawings, um, inspired by, uh, this reading? Were you drawing, you know, dragons and nights, et cetera, et cetera?

Leigh Chalker (30:28):
Uh, so what I have, like, so, so I, like I mentioned, my friend mentioned that I was drawing in primary school, but I, I remember picking up drawing in high school. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, my stepsister is, was a really great artist. Um, and I also had a friend who was really into like Sailor Moon, and she would, she did these amazing drawings and I was like, oh my God. Um, and uh, so that got me into drawing a lot. Uh, but I drew Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z <laugh>

Jana Hoffmann (31:04):
<laugh>, okay. That’s left field. So we’re going from high fantasy to Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z. Right? Oh, I suppose that’s not that left field because you, you, you’re learning how to draw manger at this stage too, so, and we’re talking high school. Well, and so that’s catching the bus, um, into the city. And

Leigh Chalker (31:23):
I didn’t like set out to watch Dragon Ball Z it just happened to be on after Pokemon in the mornings. Yeah. And I kind of got suckered into the, like the, you know, the, the drama of it and the, um, you know, the, all the cliffhangers of like, Ooh. Um, so, you know, the, the waiting comma, like, you know, building energy for 10 billion years kind of stuff. Um, uh, so yeah, I would like look up screenshots from the internet and like intricately copy them, um, yeah. And draw my friends in, in the dragon ballsy style. Um, and, uh, like, you know, like big shredded muscles and all, like, which, you know, we were 14, that that was not reality at all. Um, <laugh>. Uh, so, um, uh, and I did like pick up some,

Jana Hoffmann (32:17):
It’s reality to me, mate, like, come on now, it <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (32:23):
I’m still friends with some of these guys too. It’s pretty hilarious. Um, I found, found, got the drawings out the other day, I was like, oh,

Jana Hoffmann (32:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so you’re a hoarder too. You, you’ve still got ’em. Do you like all these drawings? Oh yeah,

Leigh Chalker (32:35):
I, well, at the time I’d like, every year I would put them, I had, and it was, they were like school folders too, you know, like with school stationary of the, like, um, the, the folders with the, the slip, you know, what you would put all your, your high, your assignments and crap in

Jana Hoffmann (32:54):
School. I

Leigh Chalker (32:54):
Just had some extras and I would Yeah, yeah. Data all. And so, so yeah, I, I I would keep everything. Um, I, I wasn’t good at like, doing crappy drawings. I, I, I would always like, keep everything and then, um, hate it when it wasn’t like super amazing. So, um, uh, yeah, so I, I had, I was going through some crap and I was, I found all of these folders and they’re dated by year, so for the most part, so, um, uh, yeah, I was able to with those guys.

Jana Hoffmann (33:34):
Yeah. Yeah. That it’s good when you date ’em because, um, like I date all of my drawings and that as well. And, uh, I’m a hoarder, so I have thousands of pages of, um, drawings in boxes and things. And, um, sometimes it is nice just to go through and, you know, I pull ’em out and you can see like, you know, seventh of the eighth, 1991 and like, you know, you sit there and go, oh, you know, like, oh yeah, we were living in this house, or we were on that holiday. You know what I mean? Like, and I don’t know, just it, it prompts memories. It’s sort of, um, um, I guess it’s sort of like a diary for me at certain points, you know, like looking at my artwork and just remembering, you know, like, um, things that I was doing at that particular time.

(34:22)
’cause uh, um, if I had them handy, I’d, um, I’d really freak you out because, um, Nortis Art, db, dragon Ball Z, those were good times. Um, I remember those on the morning. Well, um, uh, yeah, I, if I had the, if I could get my hands on them, I’d freak you out. ’cause my mom kept all of my comic books that I used to draw as a kid and stuff. And, um, um, yeah, yeah, I was, I was well into like, from uh, looking back well into like Transformers and stuff like that. ’cause I had heaps of Transformers, like comic books that I did in creating my own Transformers. I don’t know, like that’s <laugh> delusions of grand. You’re there from a 7-year-old. But anyway, <laugh>, it’s like, whatever, you just having fun. But, um, yeah, I was colouring ’em in and cutting sick on ’em, man.

(35:14)
So it’s like, you know, like I was really giving it everything, you know. And, um, um, I had, I had one actually, ya like, while we’re talking about this, it’s called, um, the Jaguar like hunts in the night, <laugh> this 7-year-old, like getting all dramatic and stuff. And so it’s like these hunters, because I reread it like a couple of months ago, man, and I was like, you know what, you know, like I should have an adult version of that, uh, like as in me now, not an adult, you know, like version, um, yeah. A rooting version, you know. So just, just to clear that up in case anyone’s like, you know, what is he talking about? Like a Panther adult? Anyway, so come on, get your minds outta the gutter. Let’s get back into this, you know, good stuff. Um, and yeah, it was about these hunters that, you know, like <laugh> hunted down at Jaguar. And then, I don’t know, man, if I was the teacher with at school that read this, I possibly would’ve sent me to a counsellor, but no one did. They just, you know, oh yeah, gold star. They, they shoot the pan. The, the, the panther, the panther doesn’t die. So for the next like five or six pages, they just beat it with a stick and <laugh> and it just says the end. And like, look man, I don’t know, um, I dunno what more I could say about that, but, uh, mm-hmm. Maybe I should say, what

Leigh Chalker (36:29):
Did the panther do to you? <laugh>?

Jana Hoffmann (36:33):
I dunno, I dunno.

Leigh Chalker (36:34):
Like a bad experience at the zoo or something. <laugh>.

Jana Hoffmann (36:37):
Yeah. I dunno, man. I read it and like, you know, a couple of months ago I was like sitting there going like, what? You know, like, mom, did you not think this was like unusual? Oh no, you were just enjoying yourself. Like, okay, like cool, you know, <laugh>, thank you. Um, yeah, lucky I turned out. Uh, alright. So, um, you know, things are okay. Um, but, um,

Leigh Chalker (37:03):
I think I did try and start a comic in high school, like a fantasy comic, which was really just copying little bits of like other, you know, like really self, uh, you know, it would be Mary Sue kind of levels of, uh, that sort of self involvement. Um, and also just copying the books that I’ve, or that I liked and read. Um, in saying that I think it was only about four pages and then I gave up. Um, uh, it was just well beyond my skillset and level of interest to do something quite so involved. Um, yeah. And so, so yeah. But, um, yeah, I, I did continue to draw all through high school and stuff. I, I had ne a Neopets account. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that. Um, and I would

Jana Hoffmann (37:55):
Pets, I have heard of it, but as to what they’re, I have absolutely no idea. I’m, uh, possibly a fluorescent pet, <laugh> dunno,

Leigh Chalker (38:05):
I even know how to describe the website. It was like, it was kind of like online tamagotchi with games and Yeah.

Jana Hoffmann (38:13):
Yeah. Right.

Leigh Chalker (38:15):
D like you adopted, you got a pet. Um, and they were kind of like some sort of sometimes kind of fantasy. It was kind of like Pokemon too, in a way. It was like, kinda like Pokemon and Tamagotchi and because it was all flash, well, a lot of it was Flash games. It was just like, you know, when the, everyone was still working out what the internet really was that like, yeah. It was one of those kind of strange websites. And so you, you had your own pets. Um, and I think, yeah, I would draw like artwork of my pet. Um, and you could, you got your own like, um,

Jana Hoffmann (38:54):
Have your

Leigh Chalker (38:54):
Pushed the page for your pet

Jana Hoffmann (38:56):
Gambling

Leigh Chalker (38:57):
<laugh>.

Jana Hoffmann (39:00):
Fair enough.

Leigh Chalker (39:00):
Potentially. I think it’s still around as far as I’m aware. Like, I think it’s still around. Um, yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (39:07):
Well they, these things never die. I mean, Pokemon’s going strong and like, dragon Ball Z my God, that’s still going, you know what I mean? Like, he’s just in his 57 iteration. Um, but hey, that’s cool. Like, you know, that longevity of it and, you know, brings more kids into, you know, like, um, uh, imagination and um, you know, like fire and the synapses and stuff and you know, like wanting to create things and that. I reckon it’s really cool, man. So that’s cool. So when, when you, when you’re hitting the Neopets and, and you’ve got your, your, your screen, what do we got still around? I have a friend who works in marketing there. There you go. So Neopets is Oh wow. Still

Leigh Chalker (39:45):
Around.

Jana Hoffmann (39:46):
Boom. Boom. Alright. Amazing. Um, so good. Yeah.

Leigh Chalker (39:49):
<laugh>,

Jana Hoffmann (39:50):
See what a Neo pet is. Um, I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one, but, um, we can change that. Just, you know, the, the, the internet is amazing place you can find anything. Um, now you were mentioning before you were on, you, you used to jump on the bus and like head into, um, your local comic shop. And, um, what was it that attracted you to Michael Turner’s stuff initially, other than being issue one? Because I’m assuming at the time there were other issue ones out, you know, like at, at those particular times. And, um, how did you find out about a comic shop? Um, you mentioned before that they’re, you know, like the racks were a little bit intimidating. So, uh, I’d, I’d love to find out, um, what your, your recollections are of being, um, younger and like, I’m, I’m heading in here, I’m, I’m taken on this comic, you know, thing. Um, what, what, how did you become aware of comics after fantasy and, uh, all this other stuff and draw and just put it together, like, tell us that part of your story, man.

Leigh Chalker (41:01):
Well, I definitely, um, it was web comics that got me looking into looking for comic shops. Um, yeah. And, and I guess I found the comic shops intimidating because they weren’t set up like a bookstore, which was what I was really familiar with. Or even a library, you know, <laugh>. Yeah. Um, the, they weren’t set up by genre or by Alphabet, which, um, but by publisher. And I was just like, I don’t, I don’t know, like I didn’t know anything about the publishers, so I didn’t know what they offered. Um, Aspen was a fantasy comic, um, that I, uh, and so I was like the, it’s it’s like sci-fi tech, but also dragons and fairies and magic. So I was like, well that sounds good. That sounds great to me. Um, so, uh, I also picked up, um, I think it’s Claremont’s Gen 13, like series?

(41:59)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Um, uh, again, ’cause it kind of looked like it had a little bit of magic and it was a number one. Um, there was also, um, a bunch of like floppy mangas that, um, I picked up, what was they called? Um, ’cause it was fantasy, um, again, so <laugh>, but they were like randomly just sort of in the middle of stuff, or like, they kind of randomly ended. I I, I never really picked up what the story, what was going on in those stories, but the pick the art was so amazing to me. I was like, this is so good. Um, so I didn’t really care. I just copied, like again, I was, I just did lots of coughing. So I was coughing Just the big, big-ish splash panels or of Yeah, yeah. Of like that, like intricate pencil copying of this stuff.

Jana Hoffmann (42:54):
Were you tracing them or were you like having the comic book there with a piece of paper and eyeballing it and doing your own version?

Leigh Chalker (43:02):
I think it was mostly eyeballing. Yeah, it was mostly eyeballing. Occasionally I would even try and do my own version of the pose or the character. Like, I would try and make it not look I, like, I was copying it when I was very much just copying it. Um, and, uh, like, which is fine. That’s how you know how little kids learn and you know how you learn, mate. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Um, uh, and I would post a lot of it to Db n Art and, uh, Elwood, which is a website that people may or may not remember. I’m pretty sure it is now gone. Um, uh, it was a very, it was, it was like DV and art, but specifically just for fantasy, um, artwork. And, um, uh, yeah, I, what else did I pick up from there? Um, ’cause I really got into the X-Men cartoon series for a bit.

(44:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so, and, and also, um, the, so, well I said really, I, I watched some of the like X-Men cartoon, uh, and then there was X-Men Evolution, which I think was like everybody in high school. Um, and I had a crush on Kurt. I don’t know why. Like, he’s a freaking blue alien. But anyway, um, uh, I think again, accents, I like the accent, um, fun times. Uh, but yeah, so they, um, uh, so there was a X-Men evolution cutter in the, uh, like sorry comic that I picked up. It wasn’t very good, so, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I didn’t keep it. It was just a volume of that. So, so yeah, I, um, after, after high school, I kind of only read web comics for quite a while until, um, yeah. Until I found the La Ladies Comic Book club. Yeah, yeah. Um, so

Jana Hoffmann (45:10):
Yeah. Yeah. What, what was your, um, with the web comic like, ’cause comics, obviously, when you’re in high school and stuff, you know, you don’t, you don’t have a lot of money, um, you know, if you’ve got a part-time job or you don’t, you know, depending on your situation, it’s like really determined by your parents, I guess, at that stage. Um, but, um, what, um, were web comics at that stage because they’re accessible, obviously, and, you know, you’ve got, um, uh, an interest in the, into webby because, you know, like we can get into, you know, what you do a little later on. Um, but were web comics at that stage free, or were they like, you know, uh, so people were putting them up and you could just sit there and you could like, read them bang, you know, like, as opposed to, you know, jumping on the bus and, and fighting off, you know, like all of those hoards and things like that, you know, to get to your favourite comic book.

(46:07)
Um, and, um, I, I, to be honest with you, I myself, I don’t know why I’ve never really come across too many web comics. I mean, that’s probably just being a little bit older. I think I’m a little bit, um, uh, I don’t know, I I just sort of like having comics to read, you know what I mean? I don’t know. It’s, it’s just, look, it’s an age thing maybe, you know what I mean? I dunno. But what, what, um, a web comics still going? Are they big? Like, talk to me like I’m an idiot Yama. Like, I don’t, you know, like, ’cause I literally know nothing about web comics and from someone who, you know, like got into ’em during that period, hit me. Tell me what they’re all about.

Leigh Chalker (46:58):
I mean, yeah, to be honest, I don’t think I know anyone else who read them quite as much as I have. Um, uh, I’m sure that there’s obviously tonnes of readers of web comings, but, um, yeah, in the, you know, in, in high school they were free definitely. Um, although they were work on dial up internet, there was nothing more <inaudible> than loading up the, the, the comic because you’d bookmarked it obviously, because, you know, um, uh, how else were you gonna find these things? And then, um, um, be like, and you’re like, oh, it’s the same page as yesterday. Ah, um, devastating. Ah, and then, yeah, you know, we got broadband became a thing, and then it was just like, oh, um, uh, uh, or A DSL or, um, so multiple, then I discovered R Feeds there. <laugh> <laugh>. Well, no, actually that, what did change my life was RS feeds.

(47:58)
They are <inaudible>. Um, that means that you don’t need to check 10 million websites to see if they’ve updated. You can just go to the one and it says, this is a new update for you. And then you clicked on it and it went straight to, it was fantastic. Way better than social media for checking things that are updated. Um, and I’m still very mad at Google for killing Google Reader. Um, but <laugh>, um, don’t worry. Um, <laugh>, uh, okay, <laugh>, that was that reader, but, um, or our SS app. Um, but yeah, so they, they were free. Um, and they varied in quality, like everybody was, you know, just doing, making comics for the love of it. But, um, like there’s some that are continuing today that I check out, like Mega Tokyo, although it seems to update, but <laugh>, um, at the time it was updating like three times a week, um, or something like that.

(49:01)
And, uh, now there are a lot of professionals who, like, whose, um, book series have into publishing deals. Um, so, and the, um, the La Dirk series, they, that started as a web comic. Um, I don’t know if you’ve heard of a comic called Check Please also started as a web comic. Um, they, she raised, um, uh, I think half a million on Kickstarter for a a series. Um, yeah. And then, uh, she got, yeah, she, she talked about an unheard of publishing deal where she got no advance, but 50% <inaudible>, which is, that just does not happen because she didn’t need a deal <laugh>, like, so she could get asked for the whatever deal she wanted. So, um, uh, and, uh, yeah, what else? Um, Johnny Wanderer is a, um, uh, that also led into another book called Barus, which I don’t know if that’s actually, is that, yeah, I don’t know.

(50:12)
It should. There, uh, Kota and, and Hirsch I think is his last name. They’re a, uh, a comics power couple. I have, I would, I would say they, um, writer artist couple. Um, and they are incredible. Um, so, uh, just, uh, Sam Beck, she, um, started a, a web comic that’s also being published now. Um, there’s just tonnes great work that, um, uh, and uh, that ends up being published as well. Um, and then, um, of course there’s web two, I would consider a web comic platform, um, and tapas as mobile optimised, which is a whole new fancy thing.

Jana Hoffmann (51:09):
There’s

Leigh Chalker (51:09):
A little,

Jana Hoffmann (51:10):
Can you read that little note that’s popped up on the screen there? Because your sound is just starting to cut in and out a little.

Leigh Chalker (51:19):
Oh,

Jana Hoffmann (51:20):
It’s okay. Take your time.

Leigh Chalker (51:24):
And if,

Jana Hoffmann (51:26):
And if it doesn’t happen, we’ll just work our way through. It’s just a little click. I’m not quite sure what that

Leigh Chalker (51:38):
Hello, can you hear me?

Jana Hoffmann (51:39):
Yes,

Leigh Chalker (51:41):
Yes. Right.

Jana Hoffmann (51:43):
Can you hear me? Just

Leigh Chalker (51:43):
Realised I Yes, I can. Sorry about that. I have ethernet cable for my computer, but sometimes I use the wifi to hotspot. And I’ve just realised that I’m still on wifi, which was a mistake. And then I accidentally, well, I was just like, oh, I’ll make it better by connecting via ethernet. And then of course, just disconnected the call then I think because <laugh>, um, because I disconnected the wifi, so I won’t do that again. Um,

Jana Hoffmann (52:11):
Sorry. That’s okay. We’ve learned something today. See, we all make mistakes, but that’s okay. It’s, uh, that’s the

Leigh Chalker (52:17):
Beauty,

Jana Hoffmann (52:18):
That’s the beauty of live, you know, like, uh, streams mate, is anything can happen. It’s, uh, in the past just, just so you don’t feel too bad. There’s been dropouts and I’ve had to sit here by myself for a minute or two and just, you know, shoot the breeze. Uh, and the best one ever, and I know he is probably out there watching. ’cause I did see a comment before, um, spey had the stand in for me one episode, right. Um, because we had a cyclone up here and he was, um, standing in and the guest was Tim McEwen. So the show has started and all there is is Spie. ’cause Tim Mccuen’s internet for some particular reason was Gonsky for like, about <laugh> three minutes. And Oh, man. And like, mate, respect Spie was like, oh, you know, like doing what he was doing. But he got through and then Tim was like, hi, <laugh>. And oh man, I, I thought like, thank God that wasn’t me, but, you know, baptism of fire, so don’t stress too much, mate. These things happen. But, um, so it’s, I would presume that, um, web, uh, have been very influential in your, um, push on into your own comic books. So my next question, I guess is when did you decide, and what format, like where did Ana the creator, you know, like explode onto the scene mate?

Leigh Chalker (53:51):
Uh, so, um, like I mentioned, you know, doing a couple of pages in high school, um, of a fantasy comic, and there’s probably a couple of those where I like, tried to do a couple pages, no script, no writing ahead, nothing like that. Just like, oh, this will be cool. Um, and then quickly get over my head and then, um, give up on that sort of thing. Um, and so, um, but uh, I think as, um, as I got got older, um, I came across like more com like comedy stuff, uh, online as well. So, um, there’s like famous web, like Penny Arcade and, um, uh, even though I wasn’t particularly, like, I did play some games, but not, I wasn’t really a gamer. I didn’t know what most of these jokes were about. But, um, um, uh, there was another one called VG Cats, um, which was, um, a friend of mine in who I went to high school with who then we went <inaudible> together, um, met another, and we were cracking jokes and we’re like, yeah, let’s make a comic.

(55:13)
And so he would write the joke generally based around like, stupid stuff that we would like just an in joke between us or something like that. Um, and so we did that about, and, uh, it was a little bit over a year, but ended up with 52 strips. Um, and, um, I felt like I got really good at, uh, well, not really good, but although I improved with that time <laugh>. Yeah. Um, a lot of the style was, uh, a little bit ripped from VG Cats and Penny oca and just the stuff that I was reading it. Um, uh, uh, but that was really, uh, that was really fun. But, um, what I was studying at uni was, um, time and, but a lot of the, the classes that I would doing were like state power and society and like shared with journalism students, and I was like, I wanna make websites.

(56:14)
Why am I here? Um, so I ended up leaving uni to go to tafe, um, and do the advanced of multimedia, which was like, this is a Photoshop class. This is a HT ML and CSS class. This is a, like, it was a, it was a much practical course at the time. Yeah. Um, and none of this is available to study anymore because it’s all so defunct. But, um, uh, these days. But, uh, because I wasn’t with those guys anymore, it made the process <laugh> a bit harder. Yeah. And we just sort of went our separate ways. Um, so we, yeah, we’ve, we finished and then, um, uh, I focused on that web development career and, um, but at a certain point I got, I was just, um, I don’t really remember, like, I, I think I was just a bit, um, disaffected with, or like frustrated with client work essentially, you know, not feeling particularly, uh, excited by the work.

(57:25)
And, um, uh, I, funnily enough, went to a, the wedding of, of someone who I’d gone to TAFE with. Um, so by this point I’d been working, um, for full-time at an agency for probably five years, maybe four or five years. Um, and I went of someone who I’d went, gone to TAFE with and hadn’t seen for quite a long time. Um, and during the wedding, the, um, one of the women I met, she was just like, oh yeah, my friend, and we have this, this book club, uh, this Adelaide lady’s comic book club, and we meet once a month and we, and we talk about it and it’s great. Um, you should come. And I was like, this sounds great. Sure. Like, I would love to meet people who read comics <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. Like, um, because I don’t know anybody else who does.

(58:21)
So, um, so that was really, really, I met a whole bunch of really great ladies and, um, essentially discover like just comics discovered in a way. Um, and, um, I met Jess Kate there, so, and she and I made, like, so we’d known each other for maybe a year, I guess. I don’t know. I, we got excited about making a comic and so <laugh>, um, we worked on our first comic Hard of ra, so that was, uh, a theme punk fantasy book series, uh, or, or series. Um, and like that was just such a b baptism of fire. And, um, you know, I, I see why there’s not many steam punk comics, because steam punk is a, a lot of research, a lot of detail, a lot of cogs, lot of <laugh>, that sort of stuff.

Jana Hoffmann (59:28):
You mentioned that that was a baptism of fire. How, how did you both, um, how did you approach that? Um, did you do your scripts first? Did you, um, get together and draw ideas and you know, shit, you know, like, um, brainstorm and, you know, like how, how, how did that come together and, um, what’s your, because obviously like to meet someone in the space of a year, you must have had a similar creative, um, Blair, you know, and, and I would also second that Steam punk isn’t easy to draw, but it’s also, it’s very handy to cover up mistakes with all of that smoke and all of that sort of stuff. You know, like, uh, <laugh> ’cause that’s what I do with my comic books. Whatever. There’s mistakes. There’s Smoke <laugh>, oh, some pages. There’s an awful lot of smoke. Lemme tell you, <laugh>

Leigh Chalker (01:00:22):
Was it, is it, was it the the Snowstorm fight? Um, <laugh>, um, uh, but no, uh, yeah, so we, we did bit of brainstorming at the start, and we had a, a, a general idea, um, of where it was gonna go. Um, but I would advise anybody who’s never worked on a comedy series before, uh, or worked with someone before to do something much smaller. Like, I, I was just like, fill with enthusiasm and just, we didn’t really talk about goals. I mean, like, we, I mean, we sort of talked about goals, but, um, we all like, just, we think, like, I think we, I thought we could be like, it would be done in three years, three, um, and in three years we’d done 30 pages <laugh>. So, uh, um, uh, Chris

Jana Hoffmann (01:01:21):
<inaudible> taking notes, cover Mistakes with Smoke. I’ll have to remember that one. It’s very handy, Christopher. Very handy. Deep <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (01:01:31):
Um, yeah, we, um, like, we just vastly underestimated how much work everything was gonna be. Um, so

Jana Hoffmann (01:01:40):
How many pages did it end up being?

Leigh Chalker (01:01:43):
Uh, so, so it’s, it’s still going, um, at a certain point up three years. Um, I have personally had been, um, listening to a bunch of podcasts and reading about writing and, um, there was a particular podcast which isn’t around anymore, called Paper Wings. Um, yeah, I just really wanted to write, give writing my own work a go. Yeah. Uh, and I, Jesse had just had finished the script by that point. Um, and I wanna wait for another three years to work on my own stuff. Um, so, so we sort of parted ways. And so Jessie’s got another, um, artist who’s helped out with the, with the series. Yeah. Um, and still going. Um, and she’s amazing. Kami, I can’t remember her last name, but, um, if you look up part of ra, you’ll find it. Um, and it, um, uh, so yeah, I like, I definitely think that starting, you know, if you, if you have never worked with someone or worked on a comic before <laugh>, then, uh, like really scaling it down to like, the smallest thing and say, let’s do a 24 page comic, and then you might end up with a 50 page comic <laugh>, or at least that’s how my scripts work anyway.

(01:03:30)
Uh, I keep aiming for 12 and hit 30.

Jana Hoffmann (01:03:35):
I wish someone would’ve been around when I was younger to tell me things like that, mate. You know, it’s, uh, yeah, it’s <laugh>. Yeah. You know, you do,

Leigh Chalker (01:03:44):
I dunno if I would’ve listened anyway, like at the time it would’ve just been like, eh, you know,

Jana Hoffmann (01:03:49):
You just get caught up with enthusiasm, man. You know what it’s like when you’re creating something. Yeah. And it’s like, and you get into that statement, it’s like, there’s just ideas just pouring outta you like a waterfall. There’s so many ideas that you don’t even know. Oh. You know, like they’re pouring over the bucket, you know what I mean? Like, I’ll have to remember that and I’ll put this into that, and then I’ll change this and I’ll do that. No, that’s a great idea. You know, like, I, I, I get it <laugh> and that, that’s just me, you know, like just sitting in here with my dogs drawing mate. You know what I mean? It’s, um, when you get with people that you know, like, uh, you know, like flooding you, you know, like it’s well and priming you, you know, like it’s, um, it’s worse because believe it or not, Janna, I, I can be quite an excitable fellow.

(01:04:32)
Um, it’s, you know, like, uh, <laugh>, I know no one would believe it, but <laugh>. But, uh, I have been known to, uh, you know, like, uh, like some good ideas, you know, like from time to time. So, and, um, I certainly like, uh, collaborating with people that are like that. But, um, you just, you got to that point a where you just wanted to step out on your own and just see how you went with the writing. Had had before, before you had the urge to write. ’cause writing, writing, I mean, look, I think everyone says they’ve got a book in them, you know, like, you know, like, you know, in high school I’m gonna write a book. But, you know, the trick is, it’s like, I’m sure everyone does, but writing is difficult. Um, a lot more difficult than people would think, you know? Um, so were you always a writer? Was it something that you dabbled in? Or was this one of those occasions of, I’ve got this idea, I wanna have a go at this myself, so I’m gonna research and study some things to give me an idea of where I’m going, and I’m just gonna have a red hot crack at it?

Leigh Chalker (01:05:47):
I think, I think I’ve always wanted to write and never thought, never had the confidence in my skills. Um, which is funny ’cause I like, I don’t know why that didn’t, that that didn’t stop me drawing. ’cause like, I didn’t have confidence in my drawing skills either, but like, <laugh>, I just get, I still did it. Um, or at least had enough art skills or that I could learn. Um, uh, whereas I never really felt that way. <inaudible>. Um, I think, yeah, I, I wanted to write, but what I write, what I wrote didn’t really feel either good or important, um, in a way. And then as I got over, I felt like I actually had something to say. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the Po, that podcast that I mentioned, um, and a couple of books on writing that I read, they, they, they both gave me the confidence that I could write.

(01:06:47)
They were like, you know, like I’m, I’m, I’m much more inclined to, to do the, the more structured thing. Like the way the way I write is like I, I do, I outline and then expand it, um, yeah. Rather than, um, pants it or whatever, whatever it is that they, they call making it up as you go <laugh>. Um, uh, and, uh, so having that structure, that process even like, it, it didn’t make it easy, but it, it, it gave me the confidence to do it. Um, and, and also, yeah, I, I, I think I, I felt like as I could share, um, lessons that I’d learned in a way about friendship or, um, yeah, interpersonal relationships and things like that. So, um, so yeah, I felt like I always had the desire, but anytime I tried, I, I didn’t, I, I, it didn’t fill me with <laugh> with the confidence or in, um, success. So I, I kind of moved on. So I, I never felt like I was good at spelling or, um, grammar or the technical side of, of English. Like, English was one of my best subjects, but, um, not from the creative writing side, rather than the like, technical, like Yep. You know, the technical side of things. So, yeah. So

Jana Hoffmann (01:08:33):
I guess you sort of what had a little bit of a lack of confidence there to a certain extent. And with this, um, the Adelaide Ladies Club, they, they, you were lucky to find like a couple of mentors and people and stuff that were like, Janna, like, you know, like, come on mate, let’s, let’s have a go. You can do it. You know, like they showed you a little bit of belief and you were like, yeah, I will have a go at this. You know? Hmm.

Leigh Chalker (01:09:01):
Yeah. Well, and um, and Jess was, um, when I met her, she was like, she was a writer who wanted to write, and I was an artist who needed a writer, so it was just like, oh, this is the perfect <inaudible>. And so, yeah. Yeah. Um, and yeah, as we, as we went on, I, I felt that desire to, to do my own thing as well. So, ’cause we, yeah, we, we did, um, although I say we did, um, I think I only did 30 pages on ra, we did actually two mini comics aside as well, that were about eight pages. So in each, um, so we did produce a bit of work together. So, um, one pa one in particular, great. Um, it is a self-contained sort of dark fairy tale that, um, did really well. Um, and the other one was like a spinoff of <inaudible>. Um, so, so yeah, it was, it was a great, great experience and I, I don’t regret it obviously, but, um, yeah, I, at, after a certain PO point, I yeah, really felt, uh, right. As well as draw, so,

Jana Hoffmann (01:10:15):
No, that’s good, mate. That’s excellent. Um, it’s, uh, I’m glad that, um, you found that confidence because it’s kicked on and, um, um, with the, what, um, how old were you around that time? You were like early twenties sort of, I assume

Leigh Chalker (01:10:35):
Not by this point. No. So I, so the web comic that I did with the guys at tafe, sorry, UNI and tafe, yeah, that was early twenties. Yeah. Um, and then, um, maybe, maybe 26 or 27. Yeah.

Jana Hoffmann (01:10:55):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you work, you’re juggling things. It’s like you’re trying to draw as well. And as you said, you, you, you’re doing your web designs and things and, and, um, I would assume that, um, you know, your creativity would’ve like to story Right. Would’ve been building up because, um, I guess when you’re web designing and things, it’s, um, you, you do have to do what that particular person that’s hired you wants. So I, I would assume there’s only, you can’t really just, yeah, I’m gonna go with that idea and like, yeah. What do you think? Or <laugh> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you would’ve had that in you where you were like, man, I just, I just gotta do this thing, you know? But I can’t do it on like a sports store website, you know what I mean? Like, or something, you know, I, I don’t know.

(01:11:46)
You can tell I, I’ve never done web design or, or do anything for anyone else. I just, um, I don’t know. It’s, it’s just, I, I don’t even like drawing other characters, man, to be honest with you. I just like, uh, I don’t know, like, it just, it drains me of life. Like, I just <laugh> just like doing my own stuff, man. You know? It’s, uh, uh, so I can understand how you would’ve been feeling about, you know, um, wanting to get out there and, and, and, and do your thing. So we’re, um, now with, with the Adelaide, um, south Australian comic scene. So you’ve, as some of those people that you met in that, um, the club that, you know, like where your mentors and mates and stuff are, like, um, are they still floating around in the broader South Australian community and like going to the comic book conventions and the paper cuts festivals and varying things like that? Or have they sort of disappeared a little bit and yarn and still like, ploughing on with her creativity and stuff?

Leigh Chalker (01:12:56):
Well, so the, the club is still ongoing, but I am attending because I’m so busy creating that I’m not keeping up with reading. So <laugh>, um, it, it’s been a bit bit difficult to keep going, but the club is still there. Um, and, um, I, I’m still Facebook friends with a lot of those ladies and which is really great. Um, but I, um, through it, it was so through going to that club, like most of the, were just hands of comics. They, um, weren’t re uh, creating their own necessarily. It was like, so Jess and I then went off and made ours.

Jana Hoffmann (01:13:39):
Ah, right. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. It’s like, it was like, it’s literally a reading group, like you’d hang out Yeah. And have coffee. I read this great comic book and you’ve met Jess. Yes. And you and Jess wanted to create, so you came together. Yeah. And you’ve left the readers behind and off. You’ve both gone. I get it. I get it. Stephen Cleod, how you going, dude? Dig the art style on heart. Great flow to it. It’s nice to see a comment from you.

Leigh Chalker (01:14:12):
Appreciate that. Um, yeah. So, uh, so, and then to get, um, when we made out of Miera, we, um, uh, like we approached the, the local stores about, um, well, f firstly we did a Kickstarter, um, to print a prelude a, oh, I think it was only 20 page <laugh>, 20 page floppy. Um, we, we ultimately wanted to print it in volumes more than like, or, or like trades, I guess, rather than floppy. We wanted to have something to sell at Supernova or Oz ComicCon or, you know, that sort of thing. So, so we kickstarted the, the ude issue, um, and then we tabled it Aus ComicCon and, um, the, the toy fairs and things like that, that’s, um, really met the, the local creator community. And so tabling at those events was where, um, we met other local creators and, um, you know, the, um, yeah, <inaudible> and the Paper Cuts team, and, um, uh, yeah. So that was, that was how that sort of all, all grew <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah. Um, and how

Jana Hoffmann (01:15:32):
Did you feel when you, when, um, you both decided, like, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna print it, we’re gonna kickstart, we’re gonna, you know, like, and go out and we’re gonna meet people. Like, we are, we are nervous, we are like, excited, you know, like, what, what was the initial feelings at, at that stage? Um, uh, like, you know, like, you know, like what was going through your mind, you know?

Leigh Chalker (01:16:01):
Oh, I was really excited. Um, and also like, uh, ’cause, so Kickstarter is a big thing in the web comics space. Um, and so I was at that by that point, a Kickstarter super. I was super across all the, the processes involved, like, or, you know, how a campaign should be run from, like, from a backer’s perspective. I obviously hadn’t done it, so I didn’t really know, um, that the side of, uh, it, it exceeded all of our wildest expectations. It was really, it, it did a lot better than we, we were expecting. And I think, um, we just had so many great family and friends who came out to support it. Um, and we’d been posting online for a while, and I’d, um, done a bit of like, uh, all the places that I had found previously found web comics, I’d gone and, you know, posted it online.

(01:17:01)
And so we had, um, a great mix of people supporting us and also in, um, uh, international audience supporting the campaign. So, um, so yeah, it did really well, and we were really excited. Uh, and, um, yeah, like tabling at comms was just, um, just such a great time. And it was at one, like one of those comms where, um, I walked past Nicholas commission and she was sharing her, her origin story, I guess you could say, of, um, how she, at 27 28 was dissatisfied with her career and decided that she wanted to draw one-on-one for, for a living. And then five years later, she, or like two years later, she moved to the States and worked really hard. And then a couple years, more years later, she was drawing Wonder Woman. Um, yeah. And so that, I found, I, that was a really inspiring story. It was little later that I found out that she worked, gave herself sleep problems, because she didn’t sleep at all. It was <laugh>. Oh. Like all the sacrificing that she did to get, make that work. It was, I was like, oh my God. Um,

Jana Hoffmann (01:18:16):
Dedication. Hey. Yeah, dedication.

Leigh Chalker (01:18:19):
Yeah, it was incredible.

Jana Hoffmann (01:18:20):
All that sort of stuff. But, um, you know, you, you got hard work, but, um, makes a difference. You know, like, uh, I guess it depends on, um, you know, like what you really wanna do with yourself. Like I, I’ve, I’ve never met Nicola and I, I don’t know a lot about her, but what I do know, and from what people have told me, is, um, her work ethic to improve her art, and that goal she set herself was like, just man, she hit it and worked damn hard. So whatever success she has, it’s like amazing. Um, sis can you bring that comment from Steven back up so I can read it out? Art influences growing up. Any Australian artist that inspire you? Nicola Scott was a fantastic artist. So, yeah. Steven’s just asking you mate, from Australian perspective, who’s your, who’s your favourites in terms of Aussies and stuff?

Leigh Chalker (01:19:19):
Oh, Aussies, uh, not make anyone like, I, um,

Jana Hoffmann (01:19:29):
Well, you, you, you can just say everyone if you don’t really want a name, anyone, because how I get away with things, like, I, I just, I, I’m a hippie man, you know, like a spiritual person, so I love everyone. So it’s, uh, I, I make no discriminations. I just like that <laugh>. Yeah. It’s a hard question.

Leigh Chalker (01:19:48):
I mean, someone whose work I adore and, um, I mean, she lives here in Australia, so I think that counts. Um, is <inaudible>. I like, I even just, I just finished

Jana Hoffmann (01:20:05):
Alright.

Leigh Chalker (01:20:07):
On Tea Party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just her art is like, I don’t know, I don’t know how well you can see. It’s, yeah, we, it’s, um, I, it’s a, it’s a middle grade, middle grade, um, graphic novel. But like, I cried at the end on the plane. I was reading this on the plane and, um, I was just lucky that mom always has tissues on her. ’cause it was <laugh> like, coming into landing. And I was just like, um, uh, and, but yeah, her artwork is divine. Um, uh, and, um, and I mean, the other person I think of is actually New Zealanders that doesn’t really feel her like, uh, um, the, but there are, there’s a lot of Americans that I’m inspired with, like Becky Clonan, um, Meredith McLaren, um, Tony Cliff, um, and, uh, Carl Kurtz at the moment. He’s got an, uh, incredible Kickstarter going at the moment. Um, uh, who was the artist? Uh, it’s Ramina Yee. So me and Steve Ramina, ramina y. Um, I haven’t even read all of her work, but like, it’s just incredible. I watched Foot Rots, flat Foot, foot Rot Flats, <laugh>, just again the other day. Oh, yeah. Uh, like, uh, just a couple of weeks ago we watched the movie, so, um, ’cause I hadn’t seen it for

Jana Hoffmann (01:21:42):
And did that stand up to the test of Time? 10

Leigh Chalker (01:21:46):
Years’s funny how much I feel like it’s an Australian film that it’s not. Um,

Jana Hoffmann (01:21:50):
Yeah, Janna has such a unique art style and voice as a writer. There is wonderful gentleness in her comics. Nick may thank you for the comment. And trust me, Nick would’ve read every bloody comic that you’ve put out, mate. Like, ah, the Man is a ver Like, you, like your fantasy novels. Nick May is like a voracious comic book like, uh, reader and is, uh, probably getting himself into the category of a, uh, a, uh, I would say a very, uh, detailed, uh, his historian almost of comic books you can talk to him about, about most subjects. And he knows. So there you go. I, I would take that as a huge confidence. Yeah. Thanks

Leigh Chalker (01:22:37):
Nick. I really appreciate that. Yeah. And if anybody likes my work, then they will definitely, or at least my writing, then they’ll definitely like remain Y’s stuff. I mean, I’ve, I’ve only read a couple of her books, but like, it, um, dying to Read more ’cause it’s, yeah, a her art is, is fantastic. But also, um, I I feel like it’s related <laugh> about friendship and stuff, like yeah, it was, it was, it was a really wonderful book. Um, so, so, um,

Jana Hoffmann (01:23:09):
Where did you, do you, do you like, um,

Leigh Chalker (01:23:11):
Works,

Jana Hoffmann (01:23:12):
I guess, um, now like your writing from Life experiences, um, things that you see, where do you get your, your, um, influences from? Are you like someone that likes, you know, might be sitting out having a coffee and you just see something happen across the street and you jotted into your mind, like, oh, you know, or is it more like personal, um, autobiographical type stuff? Um, just for anyone out there that hasn’t read any of your work, mate, what’s your, what’s

Leigh Chalker (01:23:48):
Your, uh, so, so my first solo work, the Lonely Giant, that was both, um, like based on my own personal experiences. And also, um, there was a book that I read growing up when I was little that I, um, it was really special to me. It was a, like a from a fairytale book, and it just had a bunch of little short stories. And, uh, the, I I really struggled making friends. Like, I was much more comfortable reading a book than like, being social or anything like that. And, and, um, you know, joining that Ladies Comic Book club was actually a part of me, like, trying to make friends and like, put myself out there and, and do that. And, and it was sort of later in life that later in life. But, you know, <laugh> later in my twenties when I realised that, you know, making friends is a skill and it’s not, it’s not that, you know, it’s not inherent to everybody.

(01:24:51)
So the Lonely Giant was kind of about making friends and reaching out to the people who, at the, at the time, like I did really struggle to make friends. And so, and, and, and depict that it was a struggle because often in fantasy books, like kids just seemed to make friends kind of accidentally <laugh>. And that was never my experience as a, as a kid. I, um, like I never accidentally found Best friend very an, uh, anxious about my friendships as, as a teen. Um, yeah. And so, so yeah, the Learning Giant was a really, whilst it’s, um, it’s a completely fictional story, um, yeah, it was based on my experiences trying to make friends and, and yeah. And things that I felt like I’d learned, um, my latest book, um, to capture a calex that was, um, uh, to put it bluntly quite influenced by my opinion about the voice.

(01:26:05)
Um, and, and, uh, but also just my, also my experience about like, in dealing with interpersonal conflict and, and like trying to help people. But you can’t help people for people. You, you have like, the best outcomes happen when, when they’re involved in the situation. And so, you know, trying to, instead of try preaching my opinions, I try and share my, how I think about that sort of, or give an example of how I think about that sort of situation. Um, so whilst it’s, uh, I would like, I, I didn’t want it to be a direct, and it isn’t like a direct correlation, you know? Um, uh, it have how people solve problems and, you know, like everything seems to be so, uh, polarised and aggressive and like, I know best and you know, best. And so, uh, to Capture was inspired by trying to encourage people to work with each other and despite differences of opinions and backgrounds and, um, and experiences and, and showing that we all have value to make. So again, it’s like withdrawn from my experiences, but also like listening to podcasts on, on my commute about, uh, how, you know, how we solve problems and things like that. So <laugh>, um, there’s, there’s just lots of little things that trigger ideas for me. I have a document of like, things I would like to make stories about when they, um, uh, when the stories occur to me. But, um, they, yeah, I, I have more ideas than I have opportunities to work on them. So,

Jana Hoffmann (01:28:12):
Uh, but that’s not, it’s not bad having, like, it’s not had bad box of ideas though, for those moments where, you know, you’re struck by, um, or, or lacking a little inspiration sometimes where, you know, you might have a little bit of a writer’s block and you can hook into that. Um, Steven, I love the details in the art. What references do you collect? The many adventures of Ida Blake are ships and horses period clothing. How do you have a little, what do they call those? Um, uh, uh, the, is it a dead box or something they used to call it back in the seventies. Oh, what cloud? Something like the, the seventies Marvel characters used to have these big boxes where they’d cut things out and take photos and throw the referencing in that in there for later dates. Oh, wow. Yeah. What, um, I heard

Leigh Chalker (01:29:03):
That,

Jana Hoffmann (01:29:04):
May I ask Steven? Um, just ask what’s, uh, your reference material mate? You like, straight out of the thoughts and onto paper or, you know, like, um, oh no, you go

Leigh Chalker (01:29:14):
<laugh>. Uh, I am definitely someone who over researches the shit out of everything. So, um, yeah, yeah, I, there was a, and also I have a great friend who works at the state library, so she was like, Hey, there’s this really amazing, um, uh, digital resource of photos and things like that, uh, from the State’s history. So that was a really fantastic resource. ’cause I, I really wanted to do a, like, fancy steam park. And for all my work, I, I really love Australian, you know, landscapes and animals and flora. So I really wanted to do fantasy that was inspired like by Australia. Um, so we, and, and we wanted at the, you know, for Hara, but also my more recent work, we wanted to have that influence. And so, yeah, I, I used the state library to look at, um, like fashions and what, like buildings and stuff were like. And so even though I think Steampunk is usually more from a Victorian era, um, there’s, there wasn’t many cameras around in the Victorian era. I think there were introduced

Jana Hoffmann (01:30:37):
That little bit old steam thing. I’m down with

Leigh Chalker (01:30:42):
That. Well, what I did really enjoy was the, um, so Ed the Edwardian late early nine 19 hundreds is, is sort of when with cameras were introduced. And I also quite liked that fashion. Um, uh, so the, I, I used for Hara, I definitely u and Ida Blaker being a spinoff from Hara. Um, the, uh, I really en enjoyed using that sort of Edwardian fashion as inspiration for the, uh, all the fashion and, and that in that, uh, in those drawings. So they, that was a really great help for, for doing all of that. Um, and also, you know, got all Pinterest and <laugh>, things like that. So yeah, I’ve, I’ve never been very, I I always try and come up with an organisation system for reference, and I really, it’s, it’s a mess. I, I’m, and I, I would say until recently, I haven’t come up with a system that makes sense, but even now, I’m still trying to get a handle on, on something. It, it sort of makes the most sense to just collect things by project as, as they’re relevant. Like, I, I come across stuff and I’m like, that’s an incredible drawing, or that’s an incredible photo of something interesting, and I wanna save it. And then I’m just like, but then I, it just goes into a folder and I never see it again. So <laugh>, I, um, these days I’m trying to just collect reference that’s related to something I’m actually doing. Um, no,

Jana Hoffmann (01:32:17):
That’s, that’s fair. But it’s hard. <laugh> Dave, Dave di just got back to us with the name of that, and I thought it was like something, like a dead box. But Dave, um, uh, it says can bring that, um, Dave di comment up, the artist’s morgue for image references is what it is. So essentially you are creating like your own, like, morgue file mate, Pinterest love the character designs on it. It’s, um, yeah, Pinterest has got a lot of stuff on it, no doubt. It’s, uh, yeah. Yeah, it’s big handy.

Leigh Chalker (01:32:50):
Probably my biggest beef with Pinterest is that it’s so compressed <laugh>. Um, I’m like, I wanna see all the details and it, it’s too small for that, so,

Jana Hoffmann (01:32:59):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s cool. I, I like the fact that, um, you were saying before, um, that you are using your artwork and your creativity to, um, um, like not only like put your, you are, you’re putting your voice across, um, but also things that trouble you on a societal level as well, you know, just your observations that you’re seeing, um, on a street level that, you know, you would like to, um, see, I guess, change to a certain extent because I mean, um, you know, communication is key in everything, I would think. Um, and, uh, it is a world where, um, I would say impatience, anger, um, irritability, um, you know, like, uh, definitely things that stand out amongst, um, you know, uh, human interaction that I can see. Uh, it seems that, um, you know, it is a bit of a on your way or the, you know, my way or the highway type thing.

(01:34:05)
Um, everyone seems to be on in teams and sides and you know, like every, you know, like everyone’s wearing, you know, like has a flag, if you know what I mean, instead of, you know, like realising that, hey, you know, like it’s, we’re all one unified people, man. Do you know what I mean? Um, work together. Um, I also like the fact that, um, and I’m pretty sure Dave di will appreciate the fact, uh, that you said that you like to, um, work with, uh, Australian backgrounds and Australian animals and bring them into a fantastical, uh, element and put some Yama Hoffman spin on them. Uh, I know Dave is a huge fan of, uh, Australian, uh, Australianism, um, uh, which, um, is fantastic. Um, so I do like that. I like, I like, um, I love doing Chin Wags because I always get to see, you know, it’s not, it’s not all superheroes, comic books. There’s, you know, like, uh, uh, slice of Lifes and all that sort of thing, you know, like, uh, and, uh, your own perspective on stuff. It’s, um, the, um, how long, what, what do

Leigh Chalker (01:35:12):
You,

Jana Hoffmann (01:35:14):
Are you, um, traditional or do you use your, uh, like computer to do your artwork or iPads or anything? So how, how do you work?

Leigh Chalker (01:35:25):
Uh, so I usually do, uh, sketching on my computer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I’ve been experimenting with, sorry if I’m a bit funny, but my, my, we adopted a Greyhound in January, and she’s outside out the door just crying at me. Um, <laugh>, she wants to come in, we can bring her in.

Jana Hoffmann (01:35:47):
I’ve got my two dogs with me as well. They, that like, every now and then you hear ’em drinking water and like, I don’t go anywhere without my dogs, man. So if it’s a dog friendly, it’s an animal friendly show mate, you know? So it’s, uh, feel free, don’t stress.

Leigh Chalker (01:36:02):
All right. I think she might have moved on. If, if she does cry again, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let her in. Okay, mate. Uh, <laugh>. Oh, she’s crying. All right. I’ll bring her in. I’ll bring her in. Okay. Sounds

Jana Hoffmann (01:36:13):
Good. <laugh> <laugh>, but you gotta introduce her. You got, you gotta say like, say good day, like, let her say Good day to us.

Leigh Chalker (01:36:22):
I’ll see, I’ll see how I, I’m not entirely sure how I can give her,

Jana Hoffmann (01:36:27):
Because everyone that watches this show knows my dog Lloyd, he pokes his head up and says G Day all the time.

Leigh Chalker (01:36:34):
Ah, Pippa over here. Look. I dunno, can you, there she is. Can you see? Oh,

Jana Hoffmann (01:36:40):
There, she’s, Hey, that’s a funky outfit. <laugh>

Leigh Chalker (01:36:45):
Just came back from a walk. She just came back from a walk, so she’s got a little bed here. Yeah, yeah. Um, sorry. Yep.

Jana Hoffmann (01:36:55):
No, that’s cool, man. She just wants to be chilling out mate with mom, so that’s all good. Yeah, that’s

Leigh Chalker (01:37:01):
What they do. I, yeah, it’s funny. So she loves playing with dad, but I’m the favourite when she wants to chill. <laugh>. Yeah. Nothing

Jana Hoffmann (01:37:09):
Wrong with it. There you go. They, all the animals kind of like that man. That’s, um, yeah, yeah. Mine, um, mine do their own thing, but for some particular reason, like, I’m a bit free range with my kids. It’s like, I just sort of let ’em do what they want to do, and they come and go as they please. But whenever there’s a chinwag on, man, it’s like Lloyd <laugh> is like there. And, uh, usually by the end of the show he, you know, like, he’s sort of here, you know, like looking around and wants pets and stuff. So it’s just, it mate, you know, there’s been kids on the show, there’s animals on the show, it’s like, whatever. It’s like, it’s, man, it’s fluid. That’s how Chinwag is, man. You know? So it’s, uh, that’s how I like, anyway, so no stress. Um, and just yarning and whatever happens, happens, you know, like, uh, earlier before the show started, Janna was talking, you know, like, and the, the lamp fell over and it was very spooky. So, you know, um, thing, things can happen anywhere. Um, uh, yeah. But, um, I live in a haunted house speaking of that, but I’ll save that for another time. It’s, uh, <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, uh, and it is haunted. Um, uh, there’s some very interesting things happen in this house, so, yeah. But anyway, I digress. Um, so <laugh>, we were talking about your artwork before Yeah. Sorry, hip, you know, like, uh, oh,

Leigh Chalker (01:38:36):
How I work? Yeah, sure. Sorry. Um, yeah, so I, um, these days I like to, um, uh, I sketch digitally that, that’s kind of my preference. Um, and I, I, I’m sort of experimenting on and off with inking traditionally. Um, I And

Jana Hoffmann (01:39:00):
How’s that go? How you feel, inking? I love inking Ink King’s my thing, man. I love inking.

Leigh Chalker (01:39:07):
I, so Ross and I discovered, um, a documentary series called Man Ben, which I, you may or may not be able to get is a, oh, hello, <laugh>, speaking of <laugh>, um, uh, yeah, so Man Ben is a series by, um, uh, AWA, I’m forgetting his other name, uh, where, so a manga creator in Japan, um, who he would then set up a camera in another manga creator’s workspace for a couple of days. And then they watch the footage together and they talk about it, and they talk about their process. And it’s an incredible show. And so good. And after watching that, I was like, I really wanna get a G pen and like dip pen and do all that. And, um, so I really enjoyed that. Uh, but for working on to capture a Calif effects, I really wanted to have it ready for the Paper Cuts Festival. Mm-Hmm. Last year and time, time was not my friend <laugh>. So I, with that process, I experimented with inking, um, sort of merging the pencilling and inking process together. Like, I actually pencilled with my inking pens so that if it was clean enough, I could just use it and if it, um, which it all wasn’t always, but, um, uh, it was not really the way I would like to work again. But, um,

Jana Hoffmann (01:40:50):
Did you feel, did you feel a little bit of pressure and like, oh, I don’t wanna make a mistake, sort of thing? Like what, what, why wouldn’t you like to work with that again? Like, or work? Oh,

Leigh Chalker (01:41:00):
No. So with, to capture calex, it was all digital. Um, so rather than doing a, like, um, so what I did for the Lily Giant was a sketched it tradition as digitally printed it out in blue and then inked it, then scanned it back in and coloured it. Okay. Yep. Um, and then for, to capture Calif effects, I was like, I don’t think I have the time for that. So I was pencilling and inking a page kind of at a time, and then I went back, and then I fixed some inconsistencies because, um, because I, I learn to draw them a bit better or slash differently as I, as I got through the series. So that’s kind of why I wouldn’t like to do that. I would prefer the opportunity to actually pencil a bunch of pages. Yeah. Um, first and then go back and ink it.

(01:41:55)
So, because yeah, sometimes you, for me, I find that I, I discover the, the, the best way to draw them on as, as you go <laugh>. So, um, so, so yeah, I, and, and also I like a different brush for sketching than I do for inking. It’s okay. Uh, uh, yeah. Um, so it was, it was a cool experiment and it got the job done. Like I, by the skin of my teeth, got the, got the book ready for paper cuts. Um, so, but yeah, I, so I’m hoping, I don’t know for the, for this, the latest project, if I will do digital or traditional, I kind of want to do traditional, but yeah, I’m undecided yet, I’m still in the character design phase, so I haven’t got to that <inaudible>.

Jana Hoffmann (01:42:48):
Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s cool. That’s cool. I, I just, um, I, I don’t really, so for, for me, if, if the question sounded a little bit awkward, um, it’s because I, I’m, I’m not really up on, um, digital, um, lingo, if you know what I mean, and, and the bits and pieces, because I, I’m traditional, so it’s, um, I, I’ve always, um, been paper, um, a 3, 220 gramme, um, you know, like, uh, lovely tactile <laugh> paper. Do you

Leigh Chalker (01:43:21):
Have a big scanner?

Jana Hoffmann (01:43:23):
Uh, no. So that’s part of

Leigh Chalker (01:43:24):
My issue.

Jana Hoffmann (01:43:25):
Yeah. No, I don’t, I don’t have a scanner. I just, what I do is I usually just, um, collate about 10 pages together over a, I guess a month and, and, uh, head off, um, to office works and, you know, chat to the ladies and the dudes down there who have known me for years. So I think when they see me coming in, they’re like, ah, far out. You know what I mean? Like, here we go and it’s <laugh>. Um, yeah. But that’s what I do. Um, now, now character designs to share future projects, Janna <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (01:44:06):
So unfortunately I can’t share anything yet because I am, so I’m working with a another friend actually on a, um, on another co on a comic pitch. Um, and so she has only just got a hold of those character designs. And so I feel like it would be unfair of me to just reveal them to the world before I even get feedback from her <laugh>. Um, so yeah, and I, and we actually, we keep chatting about the comic, but then not actually talking about how to talk about it with other people. So I, I’m, I’m not that, I don’t wanna talk about it ’cause obviously true ’cause the, the new thing, and I love talking about the new thing. But, um, uh, no, and I, I definitely don’t blame you. I do wanna talk about it, but

Jana Hoffmann (01:44:55):
Yeah,

Leigh Chalker (01:44:55):
Not yet. Not yet. So, um, we,

Jana Hoffmann (01:44:57):
We did, funnily enough, Steven, we just came across the subject before the show, <laugh> and Janna was like, oh, I don’t think I should talk about it. It was gonna be a Pickles moment if it came up. Steven, we nearly had a Pickles moment, mate, you know, they were, yeah, yeah. Winner <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (01:45:14):
Yeah, no, I don’t mind saying. So, yeah. Um, uh, if, if you’re familiar with the Adelaide comics scene, you might know of, um, Miranda Richardson, she worked on the comic series hail. Um, and, uh, she’s taken a little bit of a break from comics, but she’s, she and I are back, so, um, uh, well, I was never gone, but she <laugh>, uh, uh, yeah. So she and I are working on a, on a series, uh, she’s got a, uh, outline for a script for me. And so she’s fleshing out the, the script while I’m working on the character designs at the moment. So, yeah, I am excited to talk about it, but we should pro, uh, I should probably talk with her about what we’re sharing before, before a, uh, spilled beans to

Jana Hoffmann (01:46:05):
Yeah. Well, you know, it’s, um, I guess you just gotta, you just gotta do what feels right, mate. It’s, um, you know, that’s part of the process, I guess, of, um, you know, like collaborating with other people is like, just steady, steady, you know, like just respecting the, you know, thing. That’s why where me I talk about anything, it’s <laugh> <laugh>, so why not? I’ll just blame myself later. Um, I was trying so hard to bring

Leigh Chalker (01:46:31):
The picture <laugh>,

Jana Hoffmann (01:46:32):
I, I,

Leigh Chalker (01:46:33):
Oh, I’m sorry.

Jana Hoffmann (01:46:34):
Come on. Siz. It would’ve, I think that would’ve been nearly three weeks in a row, or three outta four weeks. We had pickles. You know, it’s a, it’s a chinwag record, so if anyone out there doesn’t know what the Pickles moment is, is at the start of the show, if you haven’t done a chinwag, um, we just have a little yak before the show and a safety word in case things come up that, you know, like can’t broach on, et cetera, et cetera. The safe, the, the, the SOS word is pickles. So if, if anyone is ever watching and they hear one of the guests or myself yell pickles, that’s <laugh>. That’s, uh, we’re not going any further down that path, let’s veer right or left. So just let you in on a little trade secret there, you know, not that, uh, <laugh>, there’s no trade, but you know, like, it’s just a funny on drink and draw too.

(01:47:24)
There you go. So it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, infiltrated drink and draw as well. So there you are, um, a little bit of inside goss, you know, we’ll keep that between us though. Um, you know, so it’s, um, I, uh, I would think that, so is this new project with Miranda, is it a big project? Are you, are you thinking like, you know, what, what are your thoughts on it? Are you vibing? Are you feeling, you know, like, let’s give some of the people out there a little bit of, oh, Janna and Miranda have got a new new thing happening. We don dunno what it is, but you know, like, it’s exciting <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (01:48:05):
So it’s bigger than anything I’ve done. How’s that for that? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s still in the outline phase, so I can’t give exactly like a, a page count as yet. I’ll

Jana Hoffmann (01:48:16):
Say 4 53. How’s that? That’s a good number.

Leigh Chalker (01:48:21):
It’s, I’m pretty sure it’ll be less than that. <laugh> pretty sure it’ll be less than that.

Jana Hoffmann (01:48:26):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then the email comes through. That

Leigh Chalker (01:48:29):
Might

Jana Hoffmann (01:48:29):
Be much for me, final script is 4 22 pages.

Leigh Chalker (01:48:34):
She has, she has given me an estimate that, um, uh, but I, like, I don’t, you know, again, without talking to her, I don’t wanna put that, put that out into the world, so <laugh>. But, um, but yeah, no, it will be, um, it was meant to be a smaller project than what it is, but, um, when, when she pitched it to me, I’m like, I love the idea. Like, she, she was like, this is the co the, she wrote it with me in mind. It wasn’t like something that she already had. Um, I, I said, you know, let’s do a small <laugh>. I said, well, let’s do a small comic together. And then she’s like, oh, I’m still working on the, you know, I’m still trying to come up with the right thing for, for you and your style and what you wanna draw.

(01:49:18)
Um, and she’s like, so I have this idea, but it’s a bit bigger than 20 pages. And I’m like, what is it? And then she told it to me and I was like, oh, this sounds really fun then, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I will probably end up working on it and my own thing. Yep. Um, but at the, at the same time, because I still do really want to be doing my own stories and my own stuff. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I’ll say we’re hoping to pitch this around, so we’ll see how we go. Um, yeah. That’s good. Uh, that’s good. Yeah. Be very exciting.

Jana Hoffmann (01:49:59):
It’s exciting, mate. You can tell you’re enthusiastic about it. I, I like, um, um, seeing people in the community, like enthusiastic about the things they’re working on, mate’s. Great. Um, what’s it, uh, there we go. What’s it like working with rider like Jess, Kate, quickly, let’s recap Steven with Jess. What’s that like? Mm-Hmm. You know, like,

Leigh Chalker (01:50:23):
Yeah. Uh, so it, like, it, because, you know, also keep in mind it’s been, I think we worked together, was it 2015 to like 2019, give or take a couple of years. So, um, it was great. Like we, you know, and, but it was, it was a new process to us both. So we were all just kind of figuring it out. And so, like, how she works now, I think she actually went and, um, uh, did a uni course or a uni degree in for editing. So I imagine her process is quite different now, or, or is different. Um, so, um, at the time we, yeah, like we got together, we brainstormed about what the kind of story that we wanted to do. And then, um, she went away and, um, provided me with an outline. Um, and then she started scripting the pages, and then, um, I started working through them and she was continuing to work through the script. Um, in hindsight, I think that was, um, it’s, it’s better to have the script finalised, um, before you start working, because then we, we realised that we wanted to integrate some stuff, some foreshadowing, <laugh>, you know, things like that. Um, but we’d already drawn the pages, so it was just like, ah, <laugh>. So, um, uh, so yeah, it was, it that, that’s probably not the process that she would follow these days. I, um, um, and it’s, it, it isn’t ideal for me. Like, so, um, I,

Jana Hoffmann (01:52:15):
I guess you’re talking in, in, in that regard, like when you, um, if you are, if you are working with someone, it probably would be handy to have the script written as opposed to a synopsis and then a script come in and go, oh man, I’ve just drawn four pages that are totally wrong. Or, you know, there’s not a lot of, you know, if you’re doing it yourself and you do go off the synopsis, you can add as your, you know, like in an organic sense. Because with, I, I’ve gone down this process, Janna, that I did scripts a long time ago, um, that were, boom, here’s my story, there’s my pillars. And then over the course of time, new ideas came in. So I had to like, shape and mould it, so then I’d go back and add to the script. But that was okay ’cause that was me doing it. But when we did ring around the rosy, it had to be, you know, like, you get together, you get your ideas, all talk about that sort of thing, and then you sort of wait until the script comes in, and then when you get that script, it’s like, bang, this is what, you know, like the writer wants, and this is what I’m gonna give them. You know? Um, that’s how I would assume it would, um, work. That’s how it does for me at least. Um, so, well,

Leigh Chalker (01:53:38):
At the way that we worked at the time is really, or was really common with web comics because they’re, they’re like ongoing for years. And so, like more often than not, the creator has, well, more often than not that they’re, it’s a single creator, um, and they have out, you know, out outlined it ahead, but not scripted. Yeah. They might script by chapter. Um, and that’s kind of it. So, um, but for, for me, I, um, at least for my own work, um, I don’t, like, I like to be, I’d like to be organised <laugh>. Yes. That’s so, yeah. Um, and like organised is a bad way to refer to it. Um, uh, I get for, for my own work, I think I would be disappointed that I couldn’t go back to a page that has already gone public and insert something to, to, to better set up something that comes along. So, um, so yeah, that’s, that’s sort of more what I mean. So yeah.

Jana Hoffmann (01:54:50):
<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and Steven Cleod had another, um, comment there. Working with writers is an interesting experience. No two writers are the same. Love the different processes. That’s, you know, that’s, but that’s again, Steven, I would say. But that’s just communication mate. Getting to know that person that you’re, um, you’re, um, talking to and chatting with them, creating with, because, um, Yana, I guess, um, it’s like chemistry, you know what I mean? Like, uh, when you’re talking to a writer or an artist and stuff, you know, you sort of pretty know soon enough whether or not, you know, um, there’s a vibe, you know, happening as to whether or not the project, you know, like is, ooh, you know, like that’s caught your interest and I could see yourself doing that, you know? So, um, everyone’s creatively different, whatever the process is, man is, um, uniquely yours. So it’s, uh, just how ever gets you to the finish line, I guess you, so, um, no rights or wrongs, eh, just do <laugh> and have fun while you’re doing it? Um, yeah, or I, I would say that. Um, alright, Janna, well, as we’ve wind down our chinwag this evening and we start taking the pedal off the metal mate, um, I always like to leave the last, um, like prompting word, um, with a why, why do you do it to yourself, man? Like, why?

Leigh Chalker (01:56:24):
Uh, I think it comes back to what I was sort of saying earlier. I, um, although I didn’t phrase it quite this way, growing up stories, both comics, but also novels, they, they meant so much to me. They, especially, um, when I was struggling to make friends and lonely, like, I, they, they really, yeah, yeah. Books really shaped who I am, I feel like, and really helped me be who I am. And so I really want to give back, um, and make people feel things, <laugh>, good things, happy things. Um, so I, yeah, that’s it. It feels really good to know that I, like, I got some really amazing feedback from the Learn the Lonely Giant from, uh, one reader in particular who talked about how much it meant to him. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that is, that was just the most incredible feeling in the world. Like, I wasn’t expecting that for my first book. Um, so, so yeah, I, helping give back in the way that others have given to me just is really important to me. So, yeah. That’s why <laugh>,

Jana Hoffmann (01:57:54):
That’s lovely, mate. That’s really good. Um, I, it’s, it’s amazing, um, from talking to different creators just over the course of a couple of years doing these Chin waxs is, um, how many of them feel like that, but also how many of them that have done their first works or a particular work, um, have had feedback from people that have taken the time to reach out to them. And best why answer ever. Yeah. And, uh, well said, um, from Stephen Cleod and, uh, it’s touching to see that, um, um, that you’re affected by those people. ’cause sometimes like we think that we are doing these things by ourselves in our rooms, you know, and like, you know, we’re not what’s gonna happen when we release it out there. And, um, it, it is amongst the, you know, it’s in the wild then, you know, it’s no, no control of ours, what happens And, um, to get, you know, letters, whatever, whatever the, um, uh, subject matter was, you know, like that made you feel valuable.

(01:59:00)
And, you know, like that you’ve made an impact on that, um, particular person’s life. Um, uh, I, I would judge that as a success. So, um, you know, like, uh, um, congratulations mate, and good on you. Um, yeah, thank you. No, that’s good. Um, art life versus, uh, oh art, life. Art versus life with Felix. Great work Janna. I’m a high school teacher and you just never know what can be important to someone somewhere. And, uh, absolutely. Yeah. It’s amazing, man. Hey, it’s, uh, Nick May, great chat, great insight. It’s, um, thank you for all of the comments tonight. Uh, as usual, um, means a lot to, uh, chinwag and, uh, supporting Comex and stuff. But, um, most of all, Yana, um, mate, that’s, um, I, I really didn’t know much about you coming in tonight, mate. And these are usually my favourite chin wags because obviously, um, it’s a big country and, uh, it’s a big old world.

(01:59:58)
Um, thanks Steve. Great chat. Um, thanks for watching Steven. It’s lovely to see you mate tonight. Um, and thanks for joining in. Um, and, uh, you know, we can’t all, you know, some of us are rural, some of us are cities, you know, it’s a big old wide place. Um, but, uh, I have from the people that I know that, uh, know of you and, um, and, uh, know your work man, um, highly regarded and, uh, yeah, no, I was excited to meet you tonight ’cause it’s like, um, I just like meeting new people that enjoy comic books as much as I do and storytelling. Um, and, um, I’m really grateful and thankful that, uh, you are now part of the Chin Rag family mate. So, um, you know, thank you for coming on the show and, uh, uh, yeah, I’m very happy to, um, have met you mate. So, um, I wish you, that’s all right. I wish you every success along the journey. So, uh, and uh, looking forward to, uh, checking out some of your books as well. So talking about checking out books, where can anyone that’s, uh, watching this in the past present future, 2D, 2D, 3D, five D, any sort of d that you want? Where can they get your books, Shana, if they should so wish to?

Leigh Chalker (02:01:11):
Uh, well, if they’re in Adelaide or, um, I was gonna say, can you, yeah, if you’re in Adelaide, then you can pick up my books at Greenlight Comics in the city. Um, and they, so, um, they usually have mine in stock, and if they don’t then it will be in stock soon. So that’s always a good place. Uh, I am in the, of setting up a store, so you cannot buy it online yet. Um, but if you sign up for my mailing list@jannahoffman.com, um, I think slash join will take you straight to the mailing list. But you can also just Google Janna Hoffman. I’m pretty much the only English Janna Hoffman around. Um, and, uh, so my name usually comes up <laugh>, uh, then, or, and hopefully you, you’ve spelled my name right on the, the YouTube I’m pretty sure. So that’s all good. Uh, you can find my mailing list on my website and then you’ll be the first to know when my store launches. So, um, stores are tricky, so, and, um, I know just enough to be like too picky about <laugh> picky about things, so, so yeah, I’ll, um, I’ll hopefully launching in the next couple of months, fingers crossed. Um, so, or you can read most of my comics on my website for free, so there’s that. So, but if you want a physical copy, then I let, uh, Greenlight Comics or, um, when I launch my store, um, or the next Kickstarter that I run, so I’ll, I’m just, that might be a while <laugh>, so. Yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (02:02:58):
Well you let us know, mate, and um, and we’ll chuck the word out for you as well on, uh, over in the comic community and on all those sites and everything. So it’s, uh, people can keep an eye on you that way as well. So, um, uh, we’ll endeavour to keep the information at hand for everyone when Janna’s website gets up and running and you can bombard it and, you know, blow it up and, you know, like buy everything and ya, Janna will know the postman very well, or the post person will probably be looking at Janna going, oh no, not again. Um, there’s so many s to

Leigh Chalker (02:03:31):
That <laugh>. I’ve, I’ve definitely had that experience at the post, at the post office with the Yeah,

Jana Hoffmann (02:03:38):
Yeah, you Kickstarter say, yeah, shit, it’s lunchtime. Oh, <laugh>.

Leigh Chalker (02:03:43):
Well, I tried with my, with Lonely Giant Kickstarter, all I like, tried to get away with using letter mail for international, like for the cheaper international tier. And they’re like, um, you need to do customs form for all of this. And I’m like, wait, what? And <laugh>. So I had to take all I had to Oh, it was, it was, yeah. Anyway, I knew it better now, but yeah. So learning, yeah, posty, posty experiences. So <laugh>.

Jana Hoffmann (02:04:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They get a little bit grumpy sometimes, you know, like, but that’s how it’s, um, alright, well thank you very much Janna, and again, I wish you every success. So, uh, thank you for being part of the Chinwag family and, um, thank you very much, um, to everyone that, uh, has watched this evening. Thank you again for your support. Uh, thank you for supporting Comex. Now you can remember that, uh, chinwag is supported by the Comex Shop. Now you don’t have to be published by Com x to be in the shop. You just contact Shane and, uh, work it out with him. But there’s over a hundred titles in the com X shop. There’s $9 flat rate. You don’t have to buy my comic book, but please buy someone’s or many people’s comic books and support them so that they can go out and buy more pencils and pens and papers and batteries and charges or whatever they need to create such beautiful stories, because that’s what everyone likes to do, is to tell their stories and create, because creation and creativity lead to good mental health.

(02:05:07)
Then everyone knows that myself and com X are very big on mental health. So if you haven’t heard from a friend, if you haven’t heard from a family member or you’re just even thinking about someone, send them a text, see how they’re going. You know, like might put a smile on their face and probably put a smile on your face if you get a message back saying, uh, you know that we’re all right. How are you? So, you know, begin dialogue become one, you know, like, and reach out to people and, uh, you know, that’s what the world’s all about. A little bit of kindness. Never hurt anyone. So on that note, speaking

Leigh Chalker (02:05:39):
Of kindness, before you wrap up, I’m just thinking of like all the Australian artists that I couldn’t think of before. But one I do really want to shout out now is Louis Joyce. ’cause I think you had him on the show before and I did. Yes. And, um, that Godzilla skate or d book and I mean, his, his colouring is just like, oh, it’s so good. Yeah. Um, and I got him to do a, a print for the Lonely Giant and just, yeah. And the, him doing Godzilla Skate or Dye as a series is just like, that couldn’t be any more Perfect. So I’m pretty sure that’s

Jana Hoffmann (02:06:11):
In stores. That’s, that’s to drop, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leigh Chalker (02:06:14):
So

Jana Hoffmann (02:06:15):
Very soon, I think, oh look, if it’s not this weekend, it’s early next week. Um, I think is the first issue. Uh, so yeah, big time for Lou and Good Call. ’cause he was, was a nice, yeah, he’s a lovely dude, man. And, um, perfect mix, you know, like, um, the skateboarding story and that. But, uh, you know, good things come to those who work hard, mate. And, um, you know, like, uh, now, now I wish Louie every success as well, you know, like he’s a good, good, you know, and, um, he’s so Janna and Louie every success and, uh, everyone <laugh>,

Leigh Chalker (02:06:53):
Thank you.

Jana Hoffmann (02:06:54):
And go and buy Louie’s books, um, Godzilla Skate or Diet coming out soon. Alright, so next week I’ve got, uh, Mel Briggs on the show and, uh, we are back, same time, same channel, and, uh, next week. So, um, be kind and, uh, thank you Community as Unity. See you.

Voice Over (02:07:13):
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